EPISODE 021: THE PSYCHOLOGY OF BEING ALONE

DRINK INFORMATION

Every episode we drink a different libation – so what are we drinking this episode?

Tom’s Drink – Cardhu 12 Year Old Scotch Whisky

– While Scotch Tom didn’t mind, its not something he would drink often

Ian’s Drink – Merlot Wine

– Something Ian made in 2020

*Visit our “Tasting Room“

TRANSCRIPT:

Ian Robertson
Welcome back everyone to Drinking With Tom. I feel funny, Tom.

Tom Kubiak
Why?

Ian Robertson
It’s my voice that they usually hear first, even though it’s your show.

Tom Kubiak
Yeah, but you do such a good job at introducing it. We’ve tried it with me introducing it, and we ended up taping it five times.

Ian Robertson
I feel like we’re Conan O’Brien and Andy Richter from the 90s. But I don’t know…

Tom Kubiak
Whose got the red hair that sticks out.

Ian Robertson
Yeah, I mean, I’d rather be Conan, but I’ll be Andy if I gotta, he just kind of sat awkwardly on the couch next to Conan.

Tom Kubiak
That’s true.

Ian Robertson
He didn’t really do much.

Tom Kubiak
Conan O’Brien is one of the funniest talk show hosts there was. He’s just really, really funny.

Ian Robertson
So I don’t know if this is true or not. But I heard he used to write for The Simpsons before he had his own show.

Tom Kubiak
I didn’t know that. But I wouldn’t doubt it.

Ian Robertson
Yeah.

Tom Kubiak
He’s got that kind of quick witted humor. Yeah.

Ian Robertson
Yeah. And almost a little dark.

Tom Kubiak
Yeah.

Ian Robertson
The dark humor. But he, he’s got his own podcast.

Tom Kubiak
Oh, does he really? I should look him up. Speaking of The Simpsons, I actually was thinking about going back and watching The Simpsons, because that show is so, every episode I laughed when I watched that show. All 35 seasons of it.

Ian Robertson
Like one of the longest running shows of all time.

Tom Kubiak
I think so. I gotta, I gotta put that on my watch queue.

Ian Robertson
Well, if you do it, make sure you watch it alone. And there’s our segue. Did you like that one?

Tom Kubiak
That’s nicely done. Nicely done.

Ian Robertson
All right. I practiced that all day. So that’s actually what we’re going to be talking about today is being alone and the psychology of being alone. This actually stems from a show that you and I and probably millions of people watch called Alone.

Tom Kubiak
Yeah, History Channel. In fact, I think it was in reading for this. I think it was one of the the top three shows during 2015 in its entry year, like almost 3 million viewers each week.

Ian Robertson
I mean, it’s a pretty cool show to watch. You basically just watch people alone video taping themselves, being confident and then emotionally breaking down 30 days later.

Tom Kubiak
I’m looking forward to this discussion, because it is a, it is a show that both of us watched.

Ian Robertson
Yeah. And I did kind of wonder about the psychology of it, and what causes that to happen. But before we get into that, what you drinking, Tom?

Tom Kubiak
So I’m back to single malt scotch this week. And I’ve gone off the reservoir a couple times with gin and bourbon. So I’m drinking a 12 year old Cardhu which is a new bottle for me. I’ve had the bottle for a while, but I have I hadn’t opened it. So..it’s got a, it’s got, it’s very it’s a golden color. And a very light aroma. Not, not like slappy in the face type of aroma that some of them, some have been. It’s light on the tongue. I get a little bit of apple. It’s an interesting flavor. Yeah, not real strong. It’s almost like watery. A little bit.

Ian Robertson
Really?

Tom Kubiak
Yeah, yeah, it’s good. Yeah. What are you drinking?

Ian Robertson
Okay, well, I want to hear about this real quick. So is that a buy for you? Would you get that again? Or is it something to give as a gift but not drink yourself?

Tom Kubiak
It’s not bad. It’s not something I would drink every day.

Ian Robertson
Okay.

Tom Kubiak
But I’m glad to try it. Yeah, I like it. I like the flavors to be a little bit stronger. And I like it to be more caramel and vanilla. And this is not, so..

Ian Robertson
Yeah, I like the strong flavors, too. That’s kinda, kind of my thing.

Tom Kubiak
And I especially like when the aroma is really good. You know, when you get, when you get a really good aroma, but I’m not getting that. What are you drinking?

Ian Robertson
So I am drinking a 2020 merlot.

Tom Kubiak
Ooh, that you made yourself?

Ian Robertson
Yeah, I made it myself.

Tom Kubiak
Nice.

Ian Robertson
I’m not a huge fan of it. It was the first year that I did cold maceration.

Tom Kubiak
Okay.

Ian Robertson
Which is basically you soak the skins in the wine a lot longer.

Tom Kubiak
Okay.

Ian Robertson
So the problem is..

Tom Kubiak
Does it get a lot of tannins?

Ian Robertson
Like way too much. Like I like tannin-y wine. Like I like my mouth to pucker. This is just like raw tannin additive that you’re just shoving in your mouth like..

Tom Kubiak
Oh, okay, yeah, too long.

Ian Robertson
Yeah, it was too long. I think I did it for like three weeks. So if anybody makes wine, if that hurts your feelings, it hurts mine too. I’m sorry. But it’s okay. It was pandemic wine.

Tom Kubiak
100% Merlot grapes?

Ian Robertson
100% Merlot grapes.

Tom Kubiak
Okay.

Ian Robertson
Just crush em and wait. So I did learn something from this, that I’m probably only going to let my grapes skin sit in maximum a week. Maybe just a few days. I find most people don’t like a tannin-y wine. So leaving the wine in there for a day or two is more than enough.

Tom Kubiak
It’s more, it’s more an acquired taste.

Ian Robertson
Yeah, definitely. I’ve met people that really liked their wine like this but it’s just not my thing but yeah, merlot, and it’s pandemic wine so I crushed this in 2020 Octoberish. So we were what, six months into seven months into the pandemic, then?

Tom Kubiak
Yeah.

Ian Robertson
Yeah.

Tom Kubiak
Still locked in our houses basically.

Ian Robertson
I tell you what, segueing that now into being alone.

Tom Kubiak
Yeah, you know, it’s funny you say that because coming out of the pandemic, we all have experience with being alone and the, the psychological consequences of being separated from our family and friends.

Ian Robertson
Yeah, I guess there’s a difference for many. So, you know, like, you have your wife and I have my family. So we were pretty content, being by ourselves and I, psychologically speaking, I can go long periods of time without seeing another human being and be okay.

Tom Kubiak
Yeah.

Ian Robertson
But at the same time.

Tom Kubiak
Myers Briggs.

Ian Robertson
Myers Briggs. Yeah, I start to feel it. Actually, interestingly enough, as we go through this podcast, I want to make sure there’s a difference between solitude and loneliness.

Tom Kubiak
Good point.

Ian Robertson
We’re not going to be talking about, loneliness is an effect of solitude. But it’s also a fact of non solitude, many times people feel lonely, while being around people.

Tom Kubiak
Yeah. And that’s a valid point is that, you know, you can lack close friends, and feel alone, even though you’re surrounded by people all the time. So, yeah, that is a good point.

Ian Robertson
But we’re going to focus today mainly on the solitude aspect, and we will touch on the loneliness part, because that’s an important part of it. But the pandemic actually caused some people to get real solitude, there was people that I talked to, they’re like, I lived alone. Yeah, I couldn’t go out, lockdown. And, you know, they just watched TV. And the only people they saw were nobody, some people lived out in the country. And they’re like, that’s it. I’m here.

Tom Kubiak
Yeah. Interestingly, I was listening to, you know, one of the podcasts I liked listening to is called Stuff You Should Know. And they recently talked about what are called parasocial relationships, which are relationships that you develop with people that are basically one sided. So you, if you listen to a podcast every week and you get to know the people who are on the podcast, you think you have a relationship with them. But the reality is they don’t know you from Adam. And you also only see a really, you know, curated view of them. You don’t see them in an argument, you don’t see them when they you know, they leave the toothpaste cap off the top of the you know, toothpaste, you don’t see all those things that normally influence relationships. And as a result of that, especially during the pandemic, when people were listening to or watching a lot of media. They developed these parasocial relationships, ended up being more important in people’s lives. And it skews how they look at the world and the people around them. So we do definitely need, we need periods of solitude, but we also need you know, relationships.

Ian Robertson
Yeah, so there’s not a parasailing relationship, parasocial.

Tom Kubiak
Not a parasailing relationship.

Ian Robertson
Yeah.

Tom Kubiak
Which I do not recommend.

Ian Robertson
It’s not as fun as it looks.

Tom Kubiak
Ask my wife about parasailing.

Ian Robertson
So parasocial, you know, it’s funny growing up, I was always kind of a bit of a loner, but I have a weird relationship with TV. I will say TV raised me and I’ll watch shows. And I didn’t know that, what it was called. Like, I’m like, I feel comforted. Like, like I’m hugging a relative when I watch certain shows.

Tom Kubiak
Yeah, that’s parasocial relationship.

Ian Robertson
And I realize that’s probably sounds a lot sadder than I meant it to sound.

Tom Kubiak
Well, I think that that’s probably pretty much all the kids who grew up in the 80s, 80s and 90s. Like, that’s..

Ian Robertson
Latchkey kids.

Tom Kubiak
Yeah, lots of latchkey kids, you know that, that’s what it is.

Ian Robertson
So going, going back to real true solitude like they do on Alone. And as a true solitude, they still have med checks. And so there’s not a real good way to measure social extraction.

Tom Kubiak
So we should set the stage for, because if any of our you know, three listeners have not watched Alone, we have to set the stage for what it is. So the show is 10 contestants who have agreed to be dropped in a remote, extremely isolated location with a basic set of supplies. And the winner of the contest is the one who can last the longest. And so they, they’re responsible for building a shelter, finding food, finding water, you know, making sure that they have wood to be able to make a fire, all the things that come along with living, and they have to do it alone with no contact from the outside world and film themselves as they’re doing it. And that’s the premise of the show, basically.

Ian Robertson
Yeah. And there’s all sorts of like conspiracy theories out there, like they’re not actually alone and this and that. But they’re alone.

Tom Kubiak
They seem to be alone.

Ian Robertson
But it’s interesting. Several contestants, I’ve watched most seasons, there’s a couple of seasons where they do Alone in pairs. I’m like, that doesn’t make sense. That’s kind of like saying..

Tom Kubiak
I haven’t seen that one. But I read about it. Yeah.

Ian Robertson
Yeah, I’m like, that’s like saying, solo flying, but you have a partner, I don’t understand. But they say oftentimes during the show, it’s not the hunger or anything else that takes you out. It’s the being alone part. And you watch these people psychologically break down, and these people are oftentimes professionals. They have a career or business where they teach people to survive. You watch them, and they’re like, oh, you know, I went on a six week backpacking trip all by myself didn’t see anybody else, fine. And then seven weeks in, you see this guy crying, rocking back and forth. And in their defense, I’m doing that at three o’clock when I forget to eat my lunch. You know, so there’s, there’s a measure of hunger. So it’s not just being alone, there’s hunger, there’s exhaustion, there’s weight loss, they’re in a ketogenic state, which oftentimes when you’re not used to being in a ketogenic state it messes with your, with your brain. So the psychology on that show is a bit different than if we were just alone, like, like some of the history of being alone, is there really haven’t been a lot of hermits that have survived throughout history. Modern society makes it so that being a hermit can happen. I say, modern, within the past, you know, 500 years, where you could go somewhere, get supplies, then go back up on the mountain for six months. But I mean, going throughout history, group living was survival, and you watch these people on Alone, it’s like, I can’t get enough, I need somebody to tend the fire while I fish. And then if you can do that, and I can get twice as much fish, now you have a fire working together, this works better. But they’ve used it as like torture. Like isn’t it against, is it against the Geneva Convention? I’m not sure.

Tom Kubiak
That’s a good question. I don’t know the answer to that.

Ian Robertson
I’d have to look it up. But I know a lot of prisons don’t allow solitary confinement anymore, true solitary confinement. Well, and I’ve mentioned this guy on our podcast before, but Andrew Huberman, a neuroscientist is popular on YouTube and stuff like that. He talks about, he has a term for it, but basically, being around people gives us dopamine. You know, we’re social creatures where we’d like to be in a pack. And there’s a, I’m not gonna pretend to understand it, but they say there’s also an effect that happens from being on Zoom. Like during the zoom, where you could see your own face and that was unnatural. And then yeah, you would get part of the dopamine release because you were with people but you weren’t.

Tom Kubiak
Yeah. And they’ve actually done studies on that with solitary confinement being like an abuse and what it does mentally to a person. But even so there’s, you know, we’ve all read experiences of people who have been unjustly imprisoned and put in solitary confinement for years. And actually, in the Middle Ages, there were there was a group of people known as the anchorites, who they, they did long periods of solitaire, of solitude as a way of penance in their relationship with their religion. Some of them even they built anchorite rooms, in churches, they like basically would put a person in a room and wall it off, and just have a slot that they could put food through,and water. So but it’s, it’s obviously anti-social, like it’s not, it’s not a normal part of human behavior to want to be alone or to be alone like that. And it has negative effects. You know, it affects your, your mentality. Interesting, yeah, interesting.

Ian Robertson
Even think about human touch. They measure serotonin, dopamine and all those things. When someone we like touches us, I’m not talking about creepy, pat on the back, handshake.

Tom Kubiak
Yep. A hug.

Ian Robertson
Things get released, a hug. Yeah, especially like a marriage mate. Those release chemicals that we do not release when we are alone. Yeah, so no matter how we want to look at it, because to be honest with you from my research, the science is blurry on a lot of it, but all they really know is you just don’t get the same things that, alone, that you do when you’re with people, even people that you don’t, like being in a crowded bar and you don’t know anybody there. You’re still getting things that you don’t get when you’re alone. So it’s an endurance thing when you’re alone.

Tom Kubiak
True. So when they put these contestants in Alone, you know you like you were saying the first little bit of time you see them really focused on getting their, the location for their shelter and then they start building their shelter and some of them actually have built some pretty nice little shelters you know, like basically log cabins. Some of them have, you know, used the clay that they found and built you know, fireplaces that have flues so that they vent the air properly. And, you know, they’ve really put, they put a lot of time to it. But what ends up happening is you see their mental state start to go downhill. So even if they, if they’re in an area where they have enough resources, they start making bad decisions. And I think I remember, you may remember it too, there’s one episode where one guy had caught a ton of fish, and dried them all so that they were able to be preserved, but he wasn’t eating them. And as a result of that, his his, his weight got down too low and he got pulled out, medically, you know, removed even though he had like, 50 fish saved.

Ian Robertson
I remember that.

Tom Kubiak
You know, it was just it was a bad decision on his part.

Ian Robertson
So here’s, this is completely off the rail. So I wanted to talk about, you know, some of the health effects that happen, they say they don’t know the exact connection but loneliness, reclusion, clinical depression, all come from not just loneliness, but isolation. But here’s just a wild Ian theory.

Tom Kubiak
That never happens.

Ian Robertson
Never happens. We talked, we talked a while back about cognitive bias. So in other words, it happens with Dunning Kruger, we talked about that a few episodes ago, where we don’t understand anything, something, one particular thing enough to know if we’re good or bad at it. So we make a pretend bias in our mind, we all do it. It’s, it’s a human nature thing, cognitive bias. Where we oftentimes get our real benchmark of things is from other people. Like I use the illustration of, I watched a guy build a table and I’m like, oh, man, this is the best table ever. Now I stink. So I think what happens is, the more we become isolated, the more we make bad decisions because of cognitive bias.

Tom Kubiak
Oh, okay. I can see that. Yeah.

Ian Robertson
You know, if I, you know, there’s in a multitude of counselors, there’s wisdom, right? There’s that proverb. It’s an ancient proverb. So if I’m sitting out in the woods, and you’re sitting with me, and I’m like, hey, I’m gonna save up 50 fish here, Tom. But I’m not going to eat for five days. You’re gonna be like, dude, what the heck is wrong with you? You have 50 fish, eat your, eat your stinking fish. Okay. But now, if you’re not there, I’m just like, man, that was a great idea. You know, this, this is awesome.

Tom Kubiak
Yeah. That’s true. Yeah, that’s true. And that’s why you see these people that, you know, they’re very skilled at survival. Like on the show, you know, that one guy makes a canoe another, you know, guy makes a chair like they make a comb, they make amazing things. And they, they literally, that the houses that they make, you could see how, hey, this guy could live through the winter in this thing, no problem. They have a ton of wood saved up, but then they start, they start making bad decisions. And, and as a result of that, sometimes one bad decision, knocks them out. So there was one guy who, you know, the axe slipped and cut his leg, you know, and otherwise, he was fine. But as a result of cutting his leg, he ended up getting kicked out of the show, you know, taken out medically.

Ian Robertson
So do you remember the name of that one guy, I forget what season.

Tom Kubiak
I’m not good with the names.

Ian Robertson
I’m not good with the names either. And looking him up ahead of time, I still forget.

Tom Kubiak
I know. I think I know who you’re talking about.

Ian Robertson
The guy who killed the muskox.

Tom Kubiak
Yeah. With his bare hands.

Ian Robertson
I love that guy. Here’s something interesting that I noticed about him as I was recalling that entire season. So first of all, he shot the muskox with a bow and arrow, then it was going down. So he kept running at it, stabbing and running away. And all the meanwhile having cameras all set up and carrying cameras and I’m like, this guy’s insane. But got to the end of the season, he lived in what he called his stone house or something along those lines.

Tom Kubiak
Yep.

Ian Robertson
He was okay. So they went and got him and he’s like, oh, really, you know, like everybody else is crying every other season. It’s like this is amazing. And he seemed like he was okay out there. Like he was fine. Come to find out, like his sister came and got him, he’s at one point. He was kind of like, we’re not really like close. He didn’t really have anybody back.

Tom Kubiak
Yeah, he might have had the, the loner mentality.

Ian Robertson
Let’s think about that. Because in a lot of the research, they talk about, you know, people got marooned, and they can be there for months sometimes. And they come out fine. They’re like, oh, yeah, I’m good. Thanks for picking me up, guys. Tom Hanks.

Tom Kubiak
Tom Hanks was on that island for years.

Ian Robertson
But he had Wilson.

Tom Kubiak
He did have Wilson, I forgot about that. He did have Wilson.

Ian Robertson
He did have Wilson. But you know..

Tom Kubiak
I gotta go back and watch that movie. Again. That’s a good movie.

Ian Robertson
That’s a good, we should have watched that in preparation for this.

Tom Kubiak
We should have watched Cast Away.

Ian Robertson
You know, I think there’s a lot of individual basis on how it affects us because now say you have somebody who’s just living the high life, five kids. You know a wonderful family and just..

Tom Kubiak
Going to be much harder.

Ian Robertson
Much harder than the guy who’s just like, I got nobody. So I might as well be here or in my apartment. What do you want?

Tom Kubiak
Yeah, very true. Yeah, I think very true. So and the, in those situations, I think the people who are loners, they, they’re going to do better, because they take out that emotional element, the thing that gets me, and it happens every season with these people, the ones who leave their small children behind, I just can’t understand that.

Ian Robertson
They don’t last very long. Typically, the winner of the first season, he had two small kids.

Tom Kubiak
I don’t know how they could do that, how they could say I’m willing to leave my two kids and miss, you know, six months of their lives and not have any contact with them at all.

Ian Robertson
I don’t think it was that long. The longest, the guy that we talked about with the stone house, they called him the 100 day man.

Tom Kubiak
Okay, so it’s 100. So three months, even three months, how much do kids change in three months?

Ian Robertson
Yeah.

Tom Kubiak
You know, especially young kids. So I just can’t, I just can’t imagine that somebody would do that.

Ian Robertson
I can’t. And that’s typically, I think that’s where the solitude comes in. So I think, personally, just guessing, we start to have a cognitive bias, just guessing. And I think that’s what happened. But if you don’t have anybody anyways, that cognitive bias, you’re just living with it every day. Yeah. But I also think the less attachment you have is easier for you to be alone for long periods of time.

Tom Kubiak
Yeah.

Ian Robertson
Because it’s kind of like, so I’m actually on a diet, because I just got done with a diet where I was like eating 4000 calories a day.

Tom Kubiak
4000 calories a day.

Ian Robertson
And eating healthy. So I gotta tell you, that’s, that’s not easy to do. I wanted to, so I wanted to go back on, I’m like, okay, so I gained 20 pounds, and I wanted to, I want to lose 16 of it. So this is getting weird. So if I, if I go on this particular diet, I do what’s called a slow carb.

Tom Kubiak
Okay.

Ian Robertson
Tim Ferriss, if you ever want to look it up, but I’m okay when I’m like four weeks in. But the first week or two, I really, really miss cheeseburgers. I really, really miss having a cookie or something when I if I really, really wanted one, because it’s a very strict diet, but it works really well. So I think if we know what we’re missing, I think that’s where a lot of the bad psychological effects happen. And that’s why the doctors often, I’m just guessing, but the doctors are often saying they’re like, we have no rhyme or reason. We can’t say what causes one person to go insane in solitary confinement. And another guy is just like, Yeah, put me back there. I was, pass me a book, you know?

Tom Kubiak
Yeah, that’s a good point. Yeah. And I think if, you know what they let them bring too, contributes to that, because they, they’ve specifically restrict them from bringing things that would occupy their time mentally. So really, their time is, is just their activities and what they do.

Ian Robertson
So interestingly enough, they talk about, they talk about that in some of the research and I forget, I forget which one, I want to say the Florida State University College. Although are you ever really alone in Florida?

Tom Kubiak
I don’t think so. Florida is flat enough, you can always see at least one other person, no matter where you are.

Ian Robertson
It’s like a billion people there. But either way, whoever’s at it, they, they talk about that the point that you just made, but interestingly enough, since we’re talking about it. A couple years ago, the Florida State University College of Medicine, found that loneliness is associated with a 40% increase in a person’s risk of dementia. Yeah, it’s, if you want to look it up. It was led by, by a PhD, her name’s in Angelina Sutin, S-U-T-I-N. Examined about 12,000 US adults ages 50 years and older. And I think that also says a lot about the older we get sometimes the more we realize we need people.

Tom Kubiak
Yeah, and that’s an argument for, you know, checking in on older people. But I think the, the interaction that you have, when you’re dealing with another person does a lot to stimulate those brain cells that, and may actually preclude dementia from happening. So if you’re, if you’re if you’re not having that, you’re likely sitting there watching TV or something like that, and you don’t have that two way interaction. And as a result of that, your brain fogs. I mean, that’s just ancillary, but it seems like it’s accurate.

Ian Robertson
And there’s also the, there’s a softer aspect than the science, like science can say, well, it causes clinical depression or sometimes it does or doesn’t, there’s a measure of being alone with your own thoughts.

Tom Kubiak
Well, I’m not saying that, I don’t think you are either, that there isn’t a time for that. Like I think, I think most people, not everybody, but most people enjoy having time alone. Like I’m, you know it from Myers Briggs. I like people around, I like doing things with people, I like, you know, when activities are happening, but I also like, I get up early in the morning because it’s the time when I’m alone. And I’d like to be alone. I like to read alone. I like it when the house is quiet. I wouldn’t want it that way all the time. But I do like it, you know, a little bit each day.

Ian Robertson
Yeah. And not what I was getting at. And I see your point very much. I actually get up early before my family. And I sit and I read. And I have a sunroom in the back and I stare out the window, and I think, but what I was getting at is, have you ever been so busy that you didn’t have that quiet time?

Tom Kubiak
Oh, lots of times. Yeah.

Ian Robertson
Yeah. And then when you finally do, it’s like, it all rushes in on you at once. So I find personally that. So in my industry, I talk with some guys. And they say they hate the quiet when things get slow. And I always ask them, I’m like, having trouble with your own thoughts? And they laugh and they go kinda.

Tom Kubiak
Yeah.

Ian Robertson
We do need quiet time to reconcile our thoughts. Because if we just go, go, go, we get up at 7:30 to be out the door by 7:45. Get home, take care of the kids, watch some TV, back to bed. No point in that day, did we ever actually reconcile our thoughts, and that’s sometimes, there’s a statistic that talks about, there’s a huge increase in family violence on family vacations.

Tom Kubiak
Sad, but true.

Ian Robertson
It’s sad, but true. And it actually came out the, I don’t remember the exact statistic. But it came out because a guy freaked out on his family on a cruise. And I think he threw his wife overboard or somehow murdered her. And they talked about that, they say actually, in vacation industry, people tend to freak out. And it’s oftentimes because you don’t have the busyness and the mind occupation.

Tom Kubiak
Oh, okay.

Ian Robertson
Like you have all this stuff keeping you busy, unfocused, and all sudden, you’re left alone and your thoughts. And if you don’t like what’s there, that’s a bad feeling.

Tom Kubiak
Yeah, well, and I think it’s accurate to say that many people don’t want the quiet time. Like even when they’re, they’re not being spoken to by somebody, they have some, they have the television on, or they have the radio on, they don’t want to just sit quietly, and think. And, you know, I think that’s probably something that has a benefit to be able to learn how to do that. Because, you know, I’m obviously not a psychologist. But during those quiet times, you sort through your own thought process, and you filter out things and, and your brain does some cleaning, when it’s constantly being bombarded by information, it can’t do that. So I think there’s a benefit to that. Now granted, 100 days of it, I think, ends up with you going crazy, but a little bit of time each day probably is good housekeeping.

Ian Robertson
Yeah. And so I don’t think anybody would argue with the point that you just made, we need a good balance between being alone and having people because on the flip side of that is if we’re alone, and we’re always reconciling our own thoughts, that cognitive bias really starts to float around in a wild way. I know for me, I get wild thoughts, man. And I’m just like, this is what..and what calms me down is, I’ll talk to somebody about it. And they’ll, they’ll kind of like, even the look on their face I’ll be like, oh, that was crazy. Yeah. Okay. All right. Let me just back down. If I got that reaction, let me relook at this whole thing. And it saves me from doing something crazy. So I bring that up, because I don’t know how much you looked at the effects they found on prisoners who were put in solitary confinement?

Tom Kubiak
No. What did you find?

Ian Robertson
It was interesting that people that were mentally stable, you know, they didn’t like it, but they came out okay.

Tom Kubiak
Okay.

Ian Robertson
People who are mentally unstable, came out worse.

Tom Kubiak
Yeah. Yeah.

Ian Robertson
So basically, you left that person who’s mentally unstable, with their own disquieting thoughts. And that’s what consumed them. The other people that are like, man this is, you know, people would get depression or whatever, but they come back from it. So they actually say, that’s one of the worst things you can do for a lot of the violent offenders with mental issues, like that didn’t make him any better. If anything, it made him worse. So forcing someone to face their own, their own humanity and their own thoughts when they can’t control it, even with people around them. Probably not healthy. And I’m not I’m no a psychiatrist, either.

Tom Kubiak
No, it’s definitely not healthy. Yeah, it’s definitely not healthy. And I think that’s one of the reasons that, that they’ve gone away from that and or recognize the detriment of it, you know.

Ian Robertson
Well, and sometimes they do. I was reading that some prisons still do it. A lot of countries do it. And sometimes they do it for the protection of other prisoners, or for the protection of the prisoner themselves. Like, they had this one prisoner, he had a strap, almost like a straight jacket, but they make them look different. So they don’t get in trouble for that. But he was going to hurt himself and others and they’re like, he’s got to sit in a room. We can’t go in there without him getting violent and we have him strapped down.

Tom Kubiak
You know, there are unfortunately, in the punishment, in the penal system, there are people who are just incorrigible like that, you know, and there’s nothing you can do.

Ian Robertson
Yeah, and you feel bad for him. You feel bad for him. Because how did they get like that? You know.

Tom Kubiak
It’s a bad situation. Yeah, yeah, it’s yeah.

Ian Robertson
At the same time, you can’t let them hurt themselves or others when they’re sitting in there because, you know, there’s guards with family and other prisoners in there for whatever that, you know, trying to make their life better.

Tom Kubiak
The worst offenders in the, in the, you know, in the world will, if they’re allowed to, will do damage to something, like this soon as they’re let have that opportunity. So that’s why those those maximum security prisons where the, are just the worst, the worst of the worst or bad spots, they’re not looking at rehabilitation, unfortunately.

Ian Robertson
Yeah. And that’s a whole different podcast to the whole prison system. But the whole isolation thing, that’s, that’s something that they’ve pretty well proven, that pretty much just makes things worse. So I think, ultimately, if you take a mentally healthy person, and you isolate them, I personally, just from what I can see, there’s a lot of negative effects that happen, but I think a lot of them happen with what are you leaving behind, you know, if you’re not leaving, if you’re not leaving a whole lot behind, you might have a better chance of getting through that without a scar.

Tom Kubiak
Well, like you said, in Alone, most of the time, the emotional problem is created when they start thinking about their family. And, you know, their family, missing their family. And so in some cases, even, even though they’re doing okay, resource wise, and they’ve, they’re, you know, they have a whole house that they’ve built or a shelter they’ve built, they have fire, they been able to hunt and have enough food, they tap out because they they can’t deal with the emotion of missing their family anymore.

Ian Robertson
So I’m gonna go on another stretch, you know Maslow’s hierarchy of need?

Tom Kubiak
No, I’ve heard that before, but I don’t know if I could. Is it? Is it in any relation to you know, Ron Swanson’s pyramid of manliness?

Ian Robertson
Pyramid of greatness? Nope.

Tom Kubiak
Pyramid of greatness.

Ian Robertson
No, but it should be. But Maslow’s hierarchy of need. Basically says, well here, so at the bottom is physiological needs. And basically everything builds on that once you have your physiological needs, then you need to feel safe. So you have food and water, now do you feel safe, belonging and love goes higher up on the pyramid, and everybody kind of writes it a little bit different, you know, like shelter and all that stuff. But then once you get up to aesthetic and self actualization, you’re basically, after you have everything you need, what happens next is you desire being with people.

Tom Kubiak
Okay.

Ian Robertson
You want to do something with your life besides survive. So survivors tend to, once they get into survival mode, okay, I have what I need. That’s when it hits them. When they’re getting through survival mode, they’re like, I need to find food. I need to find shelter. I need to find this. Yeah.

Tom Kubiak
Oh, I see what you’re, I see where you’re going with that. Yeah.

Ian Robertson
They’re focused on that. And it’s a psychological thing that basically, it’s a general rule. And it’s ra ule that that works out a lot. You know, it’s okay, I have food and shelter, what’s next. And then if you don’t have anything that’s next, survival gets really hard. So I watch the people that do the best on that shows survival wise, like the guy who one season one. He’s living under, like this weird fallen tree and a rock. And he’s just going out and surviving and doing his thing. And every time he started to build up a little bit of a cache of food and stuff like that, like, I wish my wife was here, wish my, wish my daughter was here, you know, and just like, he started thinking, then, when he would run out, he’d be like, I gotta go hunting. It was, he was moving up the pyramid.

Tom Kubiak
It’s like he goes to that, that level of the pyramid that’s most important at the time. Yeah.

Ian Robertson
Yeah. Once you have the other stuff cleared out, and the basis of that is food, water and shelter.

Tom Kubiak
Yeah, I can see the the truth of that in how that show works, you know, and the, and the experiment that that show, you know, puts in front of you.

Ian Robertson
Yep. The people that I’ve seen fail the quickest, not as a broad stroke. But in general, have oftentimes had the most advantages at the beginning or done the best. They have a good spot. There’s this one, there was this one guy, I remember he had a beautiful house. He had food for weeks, water, great spot, and he looks and he goes, I’m all set up, and he went home that night. He called in that night. He goes, Well, I’m done here. Maslow’s hierarchy of need.

Tom Kubiak
Okay, interesting. I thought, I thought the same thing with some people, like I remember, I don’t remember the names of the people but there was this one lady she had. She had got her shelter set up pretty nice and she had this gill net out and she was catching fish left and right, you know, two or three a day and you know, they were big, relatively big fish, fatty, you know, really good for and she, she ended up not making it as far as I thought she was gonna make it. I thought she was in the best position to win. But you end up with that emotional turmoil that even with the supplies, you can’t, you can’t reconcile that, if that’s going to be an end up being a chink for yo.

Ian Robertson
And I know what you’re talking about. She didn’t talk about going home until she was just, she had tons of stuff. She had all these berries, a bunch of fish, like you said, good spot. And then she started talking about her husband and her stepson. And, you know, it’s like, that’s what happens. Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. So interesting little couple of points here about the difference between being alone and being lonely. Being lonely is hard, because it says a study led by epidemiologist at Newcastle, Newcastle University concluded that deficiencies in social relationships are associated with a higher risk for coronary heart disease and stroke.

Tom Kubiak
Oh, really? So there’s physical costs to alone, to being lonely.

Ian Robertson
Yeah. And we talked about the one earlier about dementia, but there’s not, the dementia is with with the mind. This can affect your heart, you can die of a heart attack or stroke.

Tom Kubiak
Interesting.

Ian Robertson
A study published in the journals of gerontology. I don’t know if I’m saying that right, concluded that loneliness was associated with a 40% increase in the risk of dementia, which coincides with the, with the one we read from Florida State University of College of Medicine. So those are some pretty scary things. Body and mind are affected. Not by being alone, necessarily, but by being lonely.

Tom Kubiak
But by being lonely. Yeah.

Ian Robertson
Our psychological state definitely gets affected no matter who we are, to one extent or another.

Tom Kubiak
Very interesting, interesting discussion.

Ian Robertson
This is an interesting discussion.

Tom Kubiak
I do recommend that show Alone. It’s, it is good. Yeah, you know, we should, we should do a podcast on all the other survivor style shows like Survivor Man and..

Ian Robertson
Bear Grylls.

Tom Kubiak
Bear Grylls, yeah. Although there was that one that had the two guys that was one of them was barefoot all the time.

Ian Robertson
Oh, yeah. That was an awesome show. And they were like two, one was a hippie. The barefoot guy was a hippie and the other guy was like an ex-marine.

Tom Kubiak
Exactly.

Ian Robertson
Okay, well, yeah, we’ll definitely have to do that one.

Tom Kubiak
That’s good. We should we’ll put that on the list.

Ian Robertson
So this was one of our more interesting discussions. I enjoyed this one.

Tom Kubiak
Yeah, it was an interesting discussion.

Ian Robertson
But do you have, do you have a Tom joke to take us out on?

Tom Kubiak
I do. Always got a Tom joke.

Ian Robertson
Okay. I want to hear the Tom joke.

Tom Kubiak
So here’s the joke. The three guys are stranded on a desert island. And they come upon a lantern. And they rub the lantern and the genie comes out. And the genie says, I’m gonna grant you each one wish. What would you like? And the first guy says, Well, I want to go home and poof, he’s gone. And the second guy says, oh, man, I really want to go home. And poof, he’s gone. And the last guy says, I’m lonely. I wish my friends were still here.

Ian Robertson
That’s awesome. I actually, like that one. Good job.

Tom Kubiak
That’s a good one. That’s a good one.

Ian Robertson
That’s a good one. Cool.

Tom Kubiak
You got one, you got one for me or?

Ian Robertson
I don’t but I have a, I have a fact for you, a quick fact.

Tom Kubiak
Oh, okay. Give me a fact. And then I’ll give you another lonely joke.

Ian Robertson
So quick fact. Do you know that if you took the intestines out of a human being and laid it out in a straight line, they would die.

Tom Kubiak
Quick fact. That’s a good one. You got me, I’m thinking, it’s gonna, he’s gonna say 25 miles long.

Ian Robertson
Well, on that note, folks, have fun being alone. And thank you for our parasocial relationship you have with us here at Drinking With Tom.

Tom Kubiak
Definitely, good to see you, Ian.

Ian Robertson
Bye.

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