EPISODE 017: WHAT IS STOICISM?

DRINK INFORMATION

Every episode we drink a different libation – so what are we drinking this episode?

Tom’s Drink – Black Dirt Bourbon

– A NY Bourbon distilled in Warwick

Ian’s Drink – Also Black Dirt Bourbon!

– Well, we guess it was good enough for both of them 🙂

*Visit our “Tasting Room“

TRANSCRIPT:

Tom Kubiak
Ian, how are you doing this week?

Ian Robertson
Hey, doing great. Thanks, Tom. How about you?

Tom Kubiak
Oh, very good. Good to see you. Good to have you with us. Hey, I got a I got a quick fact for you.

Ian Robertson
Okay.

Tom Kubiak
Did you know that the ancient Greeks invented cheesecakes?

Ian Robertson
Did they?

Tom Kubiak
Yeah.

Ian Robertson
I thought that was. I thought that was invented at BJs in the 80s.

Tom Kubiak
No, New York City invented cheesecakes. We know, well modern version of cheesecakes, but supposedly, the ancient Greeks made cakes that contain flour, wheat, honey and cheese.

Ian Robertson
Really?

Tom Kubiak
And they were used in weddings. Yeah.

Ian Robertson
Interesting.

Tom Kubiak
I thought that was interesting, because we’re going to be talking about some Greek philosophy today, stoicism.

Ian Robertson
I’m actually kind of excited. You know, stoicism has made a resurgence along with cheesecake.

Tom Kubiak
I don’t think cheesecake ever went out.

Ian Robertson
No, it didn’t. Yeah, well.

Tom Kubiak
Speaking of cheesecake. You guys have an instapot, don’t you? You guys have an instant pot, don’t you?

Ian Robertson
Oh, yeah, you can make cheesecake in it.

Tom Kubiak
Oh my word. You make the best cheesecake in the instapot. Yes, just Google instant pot cheesecake recipe. It’s unbelievable.

Ian Robertson
I never looked at an instant pot and said, You know what? I’d like to put some cheese in there and see what happens.

Tom Kubiak
Well, yeah, but I mean, literally, you can cook pretty much everything in a cheese in an instant pot. But the cheesecake in the instant pot comes out phenomenal.

Ian Robertson
Okay, we should do an episode on just cheesecakes because I feel like that’s what this is turning into.

Tom Kubiak
As long as it involves tasting.

Ian Robertson
There you go. The best platform for tasting things I always said is going to be an audio platform like a podcast. Yeah. You guys can listen to us taste things.

Tom Kubiak
As soon as smellivision happens. We’re gonna be great.

Ian Robertson
Smellivision..you’re showing your age.

Tom Kubiak
Actually, I listened to an interesting podcast. I mean, we’re way off on a tangent here. But I listened to interesting podcast about how they tried to incorporate smells into movies in the 50s and 60s Very interesting. And they did they tried to incorporate smells. I think it was the 60s tried to incorporate smells and and distributing smells during movies. And that didn’t go very far.

Ian Robertson
Yeah, I’ve had some bad experiences with people distributing smells in those theaters. I’m not for that medium.

Tom Kubiak
It’s really when it fits what’s happening on the screen. That’s that’s when you wonder.

Ian Robertson
Yeah, exactly. like wait a minute, we are talking about stoicism today. We’re going back to our subject. So that was really interesting, because it did make a resurgence back in 2004. And again, now younger people. So I’m on the Tickity Tokity learning how to use that thing. And all these all these kids are talking about stoicism and even a guy that I follow, you know, to a certain extent, I don’t agree with a lot of what he says but Tim Ferriss has some interesting stuff out there and he talks about stoicism. So I wanted to dig in and say okay, okay, what is this because we just use it as a colloquialism. You know, he’s very stoic.

Tom Kubiak
Exactly. That’s the common use of the word. And it’s actually that’s different from the philosophy behind it.

Ian Robertson
Yeah, there’s actually quite a bit, but before we do that, you bought me a bottle of something.

Tom Kubiak
I did.

Ian Robertson
And it is the Black Dirt bourbon.

Tom Kubiak
Yeah, on our theme of trying to drink the same thing that when we talk, so I got a bottle of Black Dirt bourbon, which is a relatively small distillery in Warwick, New York, which is near the border of New Jersey, the southern border of New Jersey. And they have I actually have never been there. I bought it from a local liquor store around us, but I did some reading about it afterward. And it seems like they not only do they do bourbon, but they also do a rye. They do some, some cider, I think and they have a small winery there two, I think. And then they..

Ian Robertson
It’s quite eclectic.

Tom Kubiak
Yeah. And they have a couple of different types of gin. And I want to track down the gin next. Oh, yeah. Because I know you like to drink gin sometimes, too. So I’m gonna see if I can get a bottle the gin which they distill over strawberries, so it comes out with a pink hue.

Ian Robertson
Yeah. Oh, you were telling me about that. The pink gin. I’m interested.

Tom Kubiak
Yeah. It’s kind of cool. So let’s see if I can track it down.

Ian Robertson
So I thought it was interesting that you picked a bourbon because you’re not really a bourbon guy. But this is the second week in a row that we’re doing a bourbon.

Tom Kubiak
I’m not. Yeah, you know what the the problem is, we want to we’re trying to do a couple things. We’re trying to drink more locally. And there aren’t a lot of Scotch producers locally.

Ian Robertson
And not completely, not completely locally. But you know, there’s some some good stuff around us and..

Tom Kubiak
Yeah, American whiskey.

Ian Robertson
Yeah. American whiskey. So did you try it?

Tom Kubiak
I didn’t try yet. I poured it.

Ian Robertson
Okay, so..

Tom Kubiak
I didn’t try it. I want you to go first this time.

Ian Robertson
No, you rustle that mustache and get the juice in you. Tell me what you think.

Tom Kubiak
Alright, let me smell it first.

Ian Robertson
Sniffing with Tom.

Tom Kubiak
It’s got a good it’s got a good aroma. I mean, the problem with me with bourbons is they all I’m not good at noticing the differences between them, you know, because I’m normally a Scotch drinker but okay, it’s not as syrupy as the last one I had. Yeah, it’s got the it’s got the alcohol burn. I’m not getting as heavy flavors of caramel and vanilla. And I do get some fruit notes when I’m when I smell it, though. What do you get?

Ian Robertson
Yeah, so I’m getting about the same thing. It’s not what I would call a classic rye. It’s extra corn heavy, which is why I think you’re not getting..

Tom Kubiak
Okay. That’s why I’m getting the tongue burn.

Ian Robertson
Yeah, you get a little bit more tongue burn, which I like it being a little bit more corn heavy. Personally, this almost tastes like a rye. And I don’t know why. But it’s got it’s got very little on the back end. But upfront it It packs all of its wallop right there. All of the tastes and flavors almost peppery, right?

Tom Kubiak
It does. Yeah, and maybe toffee.

Ian Robertson
Toffee, I don’t know about. Yeah, maybe a little bit of that. Yeah, but it’s definitely herbal tasting like it’s almost like a ginesque flavor.

Tom Kubiak
Really? Okay, I’m not getting that. Yeah.

Ian Robertson
I think maybe I’m just getting it confused with a pepperiness. We are drinking the same thing right?

Tom Kubiak
We’re drinking the same thing.

Ian Robertson
I like it. I like bourbon in general. I like this and I have to say I did cheat a little bit because after you gave me the bottle I wanted to try it.

Tom Kubiak
You tried it right away. That is cheating. It’s supposed to be, we’re supposed to try it the first time.

Ian Robertson
That is cheating. I know. But interestingly enough it tastes different to me today like I actually like it better.

Tom Kubiak
You’re drinking it neat no ice right?

Ian Robertson
I don’t know why.

Tom Kubiak
Yeah, me too.

Ian Robertson
Neat. No ice that’s how I drink almost everything. Yeah, but no, I like it. I think this is a decent win, I think I’d buy a bottle of this. I’d definitely gift it you know because it’s a cool looking bottle and it’s from Warwick.

Tom Kubiak
Yeah, it is. And it’s, it I think it’s a neat named the you know, the distiller has a neat name and an interesting history.

Ian Robertson
So Black Dirt bourbon, and..

Tom Kubiak
Black Dirt bourbon, in Warwick.

Ian Robertson
And will they ship out of New York?

Tom Kubiak
I think they do ship, when I went to the website, it looked like they do ship to a couple of places. I think at least I don’t think they don’t ship to all 50 states.

Ian Robertson
Yeah, just because you know, sometimes after the podcast, somebody will ask, you know, where can I get this or that. So yeah, okay, well, cool. Well, that’s what we’re drinking tonight. While we’re talking about stoicism. Yeah. And you know, a few episodes back, you mentioned Marcus Aurelius. Yeah. Yeah. Have you read some of his works?

Tom Kubiak
I have. So he wrote. I mean, he wrote several things. But what he’s most known for or remembered for is his, his collection of what he called his meditations. Yeah. And they’re, you know, simple statements that have a powerful weight to them. Well the one that I think I like the best, or that has the most powerful meaning to me is he said something like, If one person can do it, anybody can do it. Don’t think it’s impossible for you. Yeah. And I think that, that that’s something that’s kind of the way that I live my life. Like, if if I don’t, I don’t think it’s impossible to do something. I’m willing to try it. And I know that you’re this, you’re kind of the same way, like, you know, you don’t have a problem trying.

Ian Robertson
Yeah, you don’t have to be perfect. You don’t have to be as good as the guy that does it, you know, for a living, but you know, yeah, you can learn something new. It’s a skill to add into your pouch, so to speak. Yeah. But you know, when you brought that quote up in a previous episode, I did some reading on him just because I was interested. And he was a stoic. He was a proponent of stoicism. Then there’s also famous stoics. Like Epictetus, I’m pronouncing his name wrong. Probably Probably. Yeah. Seneca.

Tom Kubiak
Aristotle.

Ian Robertson
And then obvious, Aristotle, and then the father of stoicism, who’s Zeno.

Tom Kubiak
And this is, we’re talking about this coming on the scene about 300 BC, I think it was right.

Ian Robertson
It was, I think it was a little bit around that time period, there’s, there’s a couple of different because technically, some of Zeno’s teachers actually laid the groundwork for it. Okay. And then Zeno, he kind of like, turned it into something solid. But around that time period, but it was it was BC, it was over 2000 years ago. Stoicism is interesting, the resurgence of it, the tenets of it is actually relatively mentally healthy for people. And we’re not proponents of stoicism. It’s a Greek philosophy from over 2000 years ago, but it’s made a resurgence for a couple of different reasons, you know, yeah.

Tom Kubiak
And I think it’s interesting that it is coming back, because as we talk about a little bit least to our understanding of it, you know, we live in a society that is very, at least in the United States, is very focused on possessions and status and money. And you know, and stoicism is really not focused on that. Yeah. So it’s more focused on the person and I think there’s there like you’re mentioning there are there’s a lot of healthy things that can come out of adjusting your mindset to a more you know, a philosophy that’s more aligned with stoicism. I’m not saying like you said, I’m not saying I agree with everything because there are definitely things you know, I don’t agree, agree with.

Ian Robertson
And actually I wrote down just a few things that some people bring out that they are against stoicism, but like anything else, Some people make it look bad. And some people make it look great. It’s kind of how just about any kind of way of thinking goes, you know,

Tom Kubiak
And I think the way people make it look bad is they focus on that, oh, that person is stoic, you know, with the intention of of meaning that they are emotionless.

Ian Robertson
Robots.

Tom Kubiak
Or that they’re not bothered by something that’s happening with the robots, right? Or they’re not, they’re not connected to anyone. And that even though that may be a correct use of the phrase, it’s not really a good description of what stoicism referred to.

Ian Robertson
And stoicism also too, that’s not the only element to it. It’s just the one that people notice the most. That taking the emotion out of it, but some people have brought it to extremes, you know, kind of like the whole vulcan thing. Like I don’t feel I some people think stoicism is just – I am Vulcan, I do not feel, I repress all emotion, and you know I I just go about life like a robot but that’s that’s kind of a bending of what they were really trying to get at.

Tom Kubiak
Yeah. Speaking of that, which which Spock do you like better, the Spock in the the original series or Spock in Strange New Worlds or Spock in the Kelvin timeline?

Ian Robertson
So, Strange New Worlds, just because he was in my show Heroes.

Tom Kubiak
Okay. I forgot all about Heroes. I have to go back. That was a good show.

Ian Robertson
Yeah, he was Silas. Yeah. That was a very good show. Second season ruined it but the first season, amazing.

Tom Kubiak
I forgot all about that show. That is a good show.

Ian Robertson
Yeah, but there’s also a lot of influencers. And again, I noticed it on TikTok. So I’m just some old…

Tom Kubiak
Okay, see I’m not looking at TikTok then.

Ian Robertson
Drinking With Tom has a TikTok.. Do we call it a channel? I don’t know what we call it.

Tom Kubiak
I don’t know. But it’s a TikToker-ry.

Ian Robertson
It’s a Tik Tak. We have a Tik Tak.. we have a Tik Tak.

Tom Kubiak
Wintergreen.

Ian Robertson
So I’m watching all these. So all of TikTok is basically just animals eating candy bars in the woods and videos of people eating things. But then every once in awhile, you get somebody talking, and that’s part of the algorithm, you know, is like I watched one video about somebody talking about stoicism. But I’m seeing all these like late teens early 20s, talking about stoicism. And I guess part of it comes down to at the core of what stoicism represents. It’s taking life objectively. And knowing what you can control in fact, I’m going to quote a couple of the three people that I mentioned earlier, Marcus Aurelius, one of his most famous sayings, “you have power over your mind, not outside events, realize this, and you will find strength.” Yeah, that’s powerful. Yeah, that’s a core belief. Epictetus said, “Man is not worried by real problems, so much as by his imagined anxieties about real problems.” And then Seneca, Seneca said, “it’s not because things are difficult, that we dare not venture, it’s because we dare not venture that they are difficult.” I mean, yeah, there’s going to be like philosophies and stuff like that. And like great sayings in any way of thinking, but that just kind of gives us a glimpse into what they’re what they’re talking about. We freak out about things, especially in America, we have a society where we freak out and stuff comes and stuff happens. But stoicism says, step back for a minute. It’s not it’s not talking about being completely emotionless. It’s talking about taking your emotions out of the equation for just a minute. Okay, the guy hit the back of your car, is anybody hurt? Getting mad? Will that make the situation better? Will that make that person react better? Will you get more insurance money, and once you take emotion out of the picture, allows you to go oh, okay, but it’s not talking about being a robot.

Tom Kubiak
You can make better decisions.

Ian Robertson
Yeah, you make better decisions, it’s looking at life objectively. And there’s a measure of measure of importance to that and and how we live our lives. Because, yeah, this is coming from a guy, I’m type A personality, oh there’s a problem. So I’m going to think about it for the next eight days, and figure it out. So I can appreciate the benefits.

Tom Kubiak
Oh, yeah, no, and I think it’s, it’s a, it’s a combination, in the least from, you know, what I’m able to understand about it’s a combination of mindfulness, you know, realizing, you know, what’s happening, and also, you know, recognizing the importance of things, and where they play into the picture. So, I saw an interesting article that talked about one way to, you know, to think more in line with stoicism in your life is to do what’s called negative visit.. negative visualization, which is where you imagine what life would be like without something or if you lost something, and that kind of forces you to say, how valuable that thing is, that or that thing or person or whatever it is, is in your life. So as an example, if you if you say, Okay, I’m going to think about what it would be like if I lost my car, and I didn’t have a car. Well, now you appreciate after doing that you appreciate your car more than you did previously. Something like that. Yeah. And when we talk about mindfulness, we’re not talking about mindfulness as it was different for the stoics. It’s evolved into, you know, meditations and stuff like that. Yeah, true. Not that.

Ian Robertson
But we’re talking about mindfulness when as the stoics thought about it take like that metacognition thing we brought out in another podcast. Metacognition, just, can you just take yourself out of this for a moment and like you said..

Tom Kubiak
Look at the big picture.

Ian Robertson
Look at the big picture. But you know, stoics, Zeno. He was actually a wealthy guy, the father of stoicism. But he lived like a pauper. Is that the right word? Pauper?

Tom Kubiak
Yeah, pauper, I think so. Pauper.

Ian Robertson
You say pauper. You say pauper enough and it doesn’t sound like a real word, pauper. Pauper. Pauper.

Tom Kubiak
Like a like a jalapeno popper? Like John Popper.

Ian Robertson
Or like John Popper, Zeno lived like John Popper. No, pauper.

Tom Kubiak
You’re saying Zeno was a jalapeno popper?

Ian Robertson
This is, this is working. He loved them. He invented them the Greeks but he purposely inflicted, they don’t just like to visualize it mentally. They like to actually experience it because there is a difference. So I’m gonna quote Stormin Norman. I don’t know why I’m gonna quote him.

Tom Kubiak
I haven’t heard that name for a long time. Stormin Norman Schwarzkopf.

Ian Robertson
Yep. And I can never pronounce his last name but Stormin Norman.

Tom Kubiak
Wasn’t that the Iran Contra affair is he was part of?

Ian Robertson
Desert Storm.

Tom Kubiak
Desert Storm. Okay. Oh. Okay.

Ian Robertson
So the stoics actually take that very seriously. They say it in a much different way in various different ways. But basically, so for instance, fasting, they sometimes they would fast, not for religious reasons or anything, but what would it be like? So I’m really worried about food, having enough food, what happens if I go without food for three days? Now they experienced it. And they said, I’m still here. Tim Ferriss actually talked about a friend of his that lived for a long time on ramen noodles out of his backpack. And he backpacked, you know, across the world, or wherever, and he goes.. Yeah, but he said something interesting that’s actually part of the tenets of stoicism. Says “the more you sweat in peacetime, the less you bleed in wartime.”

Tom Kubiak
That sounds like me during tax season.

Ian Robertson
Yeah, exactly. Living on ramen noodles, and water with a little bit of cranberry juice in it.

Tom Kubiak
That’s exactly right.

Ian Robertson
It was interesting, though, because his friend talks about how he’s less anxious about life, because he knows at its worst, he can go back to backpack and ramen noodles. And he was happy.

Tom Kubiak
Yeah, it takes it takes that unknown out of the of the, you know, stress decision.

Ian Robertson
Yeah, so it’s a little bit more than just visualizing for some stoics. For some, like younger people, they like to do that they like to meditate and think about not having anything, How bad would it really be? But you know, it’s kind of like, I had a friend one time talking to another friend, I wasn’t even part of the conversation, he was just telling me afterwards. And he was worried business was going bad, and all this stuff. And his friend’s just like, Alright, what’s gonna happen? They could take my house, he’s like, will they though? And if they? If they did, would you have someplace to go? Yeah, but it’d be harder. He goes, Would it though? And he’s just running through all these scenarios. And then finally, he felt better. He’s like, I don’t know why, but running through all the worst scenarios was like, Oh, I’ll still be here. It’ll be okay. You know, yeah.

Tom Kubiak
All of us have friends that, you know, anytime something happens, they immediately go to the worst possible circumstances that would come from it. But but there is an argument to doing that to putting that worst case scenario on the table. And, and thinking about, is it really that bad? Like, am I still going to be alive? Like, is my family gonna still be alive? We’re gonna be okay. Even if it is the worst case scenario. And by doing that, you’re, you’re kind of stretching your ability to be able to get through more difficult things.

Ian Robertson
Yeah. And the other part of it, too, is the stoics are big on virtue. So a virtue is a good quality. Yes. Because they said, you know, okay, so here’s, here’s an interesting factoid. They did a study. And they found that elderly people in this study group that they did were genuinely happier, they could actually measure the happiness chemical, not dopamine, really, I want to say serotonin, but I forget the exact chemical that they were measuring in them and are like, why are the older people so much happier? And when I say older, 65 to 75 ish, and, okay, and so they they dug in a little bit more, and they found out that the older group in the study, also did, they were retired, and they also did more, you know, giving like they would volunteer a lot. Oh, okay. Yeah. And our bodies literally release chemicals when we give that make us happy. And it’s a longer term chemical. It’s not like I ate this burger, and I feel great. And then 10 minutes later, we feel terrible. It’s not dopamine. It’s a longer running chemical. I’d have to we’re going off on a tangent. I’d have to pull out that research. But I remember that article. And the Greeks knew that. Yeah, I think I think you’re right. They knew that they’re like, Okay, objectively, if you watch somebody who’s really happy, they tend to give and help other people. I mean, there’s more happiness in giving than receiving, it’s what it is. So the Stoics said, Okay, we recognize this. They didn’t know about brain chemicals and anything like that. But they said, so be virtuous, pull back on emotions, but be virtuous, do good things for others. And then the I’m not going to try to pronounce Greek word, but then you’d reach basically this Greek word that means a truly happy life.

Tom Kubiak
Yeah, it’s called, I saw that, and I looked up the word too.

Ian Robertson
I can’t pronounce it.

Tom Kubiak
Eudaimonia or something like that. Eudaimonia I think, yeah.

Ian Robertson
Eudaimonia, eudaimonia. Okay. Eudaimonia.

Tom Kubiak
It’s a fullness of happiness, not like, more, I think, yeah, we use the term happy for different types of happiness. But I think probably a better description of Eudaimonia would be joy. Like, it’s it’s actually independent of your circumstances. It’s more based upon your inner feeling.

Ian Robertson
Yeah, and it’s a contentment with life. But you know, you think about everything that the stoics did, and we’ll get to it in modern life. People try to piecemeal it, I think more than they should, if they’re going to take some of the tenets of it, which leads to some of the fallacies of stoicism that we can talk about. In reality, if we help people, and we don’t act emotionally, and people are like, well, emotion is part of, there’s some people that say, emotion is part of my decision making. Some of the people that are against stoicism are like you can’t pull that much emotion out. But then stoicism says being reactionary, is based on emotion, being reactionary, never leads to a good reaction almost all the time. Where stoicism has a fallacy though, emergency situations, you know, kinda like a dad acts emotionally rushes in, loses a leg, but saves his child, you know, you don’t have time for rational metacognition, you have to have that. And I’m not saying that they wouldn’t, a stoic wouldn’t, but you kind of train yourself to not act emotionally and look at things rationally. So I imagine that would impede some of the quick emotional mom strength of lifting up a car..

Tom Kubiak
Mom strength.

Ian Robertson
Mom strength. But also some of the other problems with it is people take the lack of emotion too far, and they go too inward. So this is just a guess about the Greeks, I think they recognize that going too inward, didn’t create happiness and created a group of selfish people trying to find their own peace by ignoring the emotions of others and themselves. Okay, I could see that reasoning. And so wrong or not, I don’t know. But I can picture Zeno saying that they’re going, alright, you guys can’t do that you need to be virtuous. So one thing I see lacking in some of the, you know, you see seminars and people talking about it and preaching it, is the virtuous part.

Tom Kubiak
I like that aspect of it too, like focusing on, you know, improve you as an individual. Yeah.

Ian Robertson
Right. Well, but that’s, but let’s be honest with you, let’s be honest with each other here. That’s the easy part. If I can say I’m going to turn off all emotion, my family is going through a hard time, but that’s their problem. And I’m going to sit here and rationally think, but that’s the I’m not saying that’s what stoicism is, I’m saying that’s the way that some people have treated it.

Tom Kubiak
Yes, I agree with you. And I agree with that definition. Yeah, that that’s not, I don’t, I don’t believe that that’s at the root of stoicism. But I believe that is what people think about it when they think of stoicism.

Ian Robertson
Yep. Like they have mantras that they repeat over and over again. And a lot of them tend to be self focused. So Zeno never intended it to be without the virtue part. Matter of fact, the virtue was supposed to be the big part.

Tom Kubiak
Yeah, I think that there’s, from what I read, there’s four main categories or four tenets of stoicism. Wisdom is one of them, virtue is one of them. And I forgot the other two, I should look them up. But it’s, as a result, if you focus on those things, it’s it’s leading you down that path to what you’re describing.

Ian Robertson
But the problem is, I think some modern ways of thinking on it, only cherry pick the parts that they want.

Tom Kubiak
Yeah, true.

Ian Robertson
The parts that make them feel good. So I was watching a video on a guy that was trying to teach everyone how to be stoic. And he was like, No, I’m not.. He’s like you the first thing he said, or one of the first things was, you know, this is not pulling out all of the emotion. Let’s get that clear, because that’s what everybody says bad about stoicism. But what I am saying is focus on your meditation, don’t let other people’s emotions get you down. Think about this. Think about that. And not one of the, one of his points mentioned virtue, and I thought it was interesting as well, because that’s that’s what they’re preaching.

Tom Kubiak
That’s a fundamental piece of it. Yeah. Should be at least.

Ian Robertson
Right. So if you take that out now you’re just somebody who feels good about stuff, but doesn’t actually help anyone else. And so you never actually experienced true joy as Zeno. Zeno recognized and modern science recognizes that giving makes you happy.

Tom Kubiak
More happiness in giving than there is in receiving. Yeah.

Ian Robertson
Yeah. So that wasn’t a tenet, part of the tenets of any of it. It was always virtue was one of the big cornerstones of it.

Tom Kubiak
Yeah. And I like that. Like, I like that the more ancient definition of stoicism and the and the concepts originally that it was part of rather than maybe what it’s morphed into today, but I thought that there was another article that I was reading that was talking about. One of the the ways to incorporate stoicism or that concept into your life as to internalize your goals rather than try to externalize them. So you might have somebody says, Well, I want to change the world. That’s not necessarily a stoic idea, stoicism would more say, it’s impossible to change the world. But I can change how I affect things around me. And as a result of that, it’s kind of inward looking like you’re saying, I’m taking that virtue and I’m adjusting my personality or the way that I deal with things. And as a result of that, the footprint that I’m that I’m making is better. And I think there, there’s no harm in that, like you become a better person, you treat people better, you do better things for other people, and you rub off on people in a better way. And those are all positive things.

Ian Robertson
So I’m gonna push back on your point there just a little bit, though, that’s one of the fallacies that people bring up against stoicism. So it’s always you know, if everybody did this, then here would be the problem. So that way of thinking is both elective and it’s a privilege. Because what if so one of the examples that one of the stoics brought out, modern stoics, was George Washington, so he actually looked to stoic beliefs later on because he knew I’m going to need to control myself and things. But now if he, George Washington, sat down one day and said, I can’t change the world, I can only change what’s around me. He never would have helped lead a revolutionary war, never would have become president. And that’s one of the problems that they say, was stoicism, is if everybody was stoic, life wouldn’t happen.

Tom Kubiak
Okay, yeah, big change wouldn’t happen.

Ian Robertson
Big, big change wouldn’t happen. I should say, good, good catch on that. Big change wouldn’t happen. Because a stoic, the basics of a belief, is big change shouldn’t happen. One person talked about it letting life happen at you. Okay, so if we’ve ever met somebody, just and I’m not saying stoicism is bad or good, I’m just trying to bring up both points of the argument here. But if we’ve ever met somebody that just lets life happen around them. For me, it’s frustrating.

Tom Kubiak
Yeah.

Ian Robertson
Because I’m like, they’re like, Well, I’m in a bad situation. I’m okay with this. And the situation gets worse. I’m okay with this. It’s like, eventually.

Tom Kubiak
Yeah, I know what you’re saying.

Ian Robertson
Hold yourself up a little bit.

Tom Kubiak
Yeah. Well, so is it possible to find the middle ground and say, you know, and I think that the concept of change what I can change, but except what I can’t change, it kind of fits in with that. So like, I don’t have any control over the this is probably a bad example. But I’m driving down the road, I don’t really have control over what the person in the other lane is doing. I do have control over what I do. And I can react to how they drive. So if they drive poorly, I’m going to move away from them, or I’m going to slow down or I’m going to avoid them. And you know, that may not be the best example. But the reality is I don’t have control over what’s external to me. So the only thing that I can do is control my reaction.

Ian Robertson
Right. To an extent. And there therein is where people make the argument. So now let’s take that traffic example. A mom drives through an intersection with no stop signs. And she has to slam on our brakes. And a stoic says, Okay, I can’t control if there’s a stop sign here or not. I’m not in government. I can’t do anything. I can, I’ll just take a different route. Now somebody gets killed at that intersection. A non stoic says, I’m going to fight like a crazy person.

Tom Kubiak
Okay, I see what you’re saying.

Ian Robertson
And bend over backwards. And then that stop sign gets put in. The squeaky wheel, the squeaky wheel gets the oil. But a stoic is never the squeaky wheel. Okay.

Tom Kubiak
I agree with that definition. Yeah. And I see your point.

Ian Robertson
Yeah. So and that’s kind of like Steve Jobs. If Steve Jobs had said, Oh, well, you know, I can’t do this. We wouldn’t have iPads or Apple. Not that I would cry about that. But. But he walked into a room of engineers and said, Give me a little box that can hold all my music. Yeah. And everybody’s like, you can’t do that. You can’t do this. And he’s, give me a little box that can hold all my music. I don’t care how it happens. Make it happen. And what do we have?

Tom Kubiak
Yeah.

Ian Robertson
Little tiny boxes that hold way more than music now.

Tom Kubiak
Yeah. And, and you think of other people who have changed, you know, by the way that they’ve run things, they’ve changed the direction of the world like, another good example of that is Elon Musk, you know, regardless of whether you think he’s a crazy man or not, like the stuff that he has done is phenomenal. And and we’re not just talking about Tesla or SpaceX. Like, what about Pay Pal? These guys, the way they operate is fundamentally different than you and I, like it’s it’s a crazy thing. In fact, there’s a really interesting biographer, William Isaacson, I think is his name. He just wrote a book on on Musk. And I think he also wrote one on Jobs, both of which I want to read, because I think it’s interesting to see the, the way people like that think.

Ian Robertson
Yeah, so I think, personally, there is a balance. So for guys like me and you, I think, we’re probably less stoic than we’d like to be. But that also drives us to say, Okay, I want to do this, how do I make this happen? And almost everything I’ve ever done, my last business that I opened, that was very successful. Somebody says to me slow your roll. You know, do you want the trouble? You know, or you can’t do this, you can’t do that. It’s like, okay, they’re just trying to be helpful..

Tom Kubiak
And you do it.

Ian Robertson
And you do it. And it’s awesome. Sometimes it’s not awesome. But sometimes when if you take stoicism too deeply, you’re gonna sit through some stuff, and you’re going to be like, Okay, I’m gonna accept life the way it is. Yeah, there’s a, there’s a measure of both that you need.

Tom Kubiak
And that’s kind of that’s, I think, been a settling spot for us in many of these discussions is like, the extremes are not really the best. The best is, you know, somewhere in the middle grabbing the better parts from both ends, you know, but unfortunately, we we live in an environment right now, where the extremes are the normal, you know, the and that that’s true in almost any discussion, like there’s very little middle ground in the United States anymore.

Ian Robertson
Yeah.

Tom Kubiak
There’s very little compromise. It’s more often the extremes are what are, you know, focused on rather than saying, what, what can appeal to everybody? You know, or where can I get the best of both worlds?

Ian Robertson
Yeah. And I mean, stoicism does have its benefits.

Tom Kubiak
I think that’s true with with stoicism and this discussion, you know, do you really want to be 100% stoic? Probably not. Like that. It’s kind of it’s probably not going to result in that. But again, in similar with the Briggs Myers, discussion, yeah. Myers Briggs discussion, we were saying, you know, is it possible to use that information about your personality, to better yourself to, you know, enlighten your strengths and make them stronger, and take your weaknesses and shave them off a little bit? So that you, you know, overall, you become a more productive person. Could you do the same thing with stoicism? Could you say, alright, you know, what, I don’t want to be 100% you know, ancient stoic. But could I say, I think it’s reasonable that I could, you know, do something like what we talked negative visualization, where you become more conscious of what you have, and thankful for it. Or could I, you know, could I internalize some goals and focus on if I’m not able to, you know, change a big picture, could I change myself, and be more productive or be more useful or be more helpful to other people?

Ian Robertson
Yeah, and as long as we’re not cherry picking the good parts out that make us feel better, and leaving the rest of it. So it’s kind of like, I like the comfy seat in my car and fast engine, but we leave the wheels behind. It’s just going to cause damage, but we feel comfortable while it’s doing it. The one thing that personally, I’ve seen from some stoics is that they tend to leave people behind, because the virtue part is missing the, how can I help people? That’s the one part of the modern stoicism that I that I personally see lacking. But overall, I think it’s, I think it’s a good thing to step back emotionally from situations. I think it’s a good thing to internalize goals, like you said, I think it’s a good thing to not react and think.

Tom Kubiak
Be less concerned about happiness resulting from possessions or things or..

Ian Robertson
Or realize that those things could actually be the hindrance to our happiness. So Zeno, he was how do you say, swarthy. I’m using some big words today. But he was all like, dark skinned from being out in the sun. And he wore a kind of rags. And he said, he’s like, I’m happy. I found happiness. But I didn’t find it from when I lost my possessions. I had to find it internally. He didn’t lose him, he kind of gave them up. But I think there’s also a benefit to self denial. As a weird person, I actually do that, sometimes I’ll fast. You know, I’ll do like, I won’t do like a whole day. I’ll do like an 18 hour fast. And I’ll do that for a few weeks. Just and I actually feel like a sense of relief afterwards. Yeah, I’m not telling anybody to fast. And that’s probably not healthy.

Tom Kubiak
No, I think that’s actually not true. I think fasting has a lot of benefits to it. You know.

Ian Robertson
We can do a whole podcast but just mentally, I’m like, I feel better. Like I feel in control. I’m not thinking about this or that. And sometimes, you know, I’ll deny myself something, not, I’m like I can have it. But I just don’t, and it actually feels good.

Tom Kubiak
Yeah, yeah. But I don’t think those are bad things.

Ian Robertson
No. So I believe that there’s really good things in stoicism.

Tom Kubiak
It’s an interesting discussion. It’s and I’m glad you suggested talking about it, because it’s not something I had really spent a lot of time thinking about. And I also didn’t realize, you know, since I’m not part of the TikTok-erees.

Ian Robertson
Tic tac, Tom, it’s tic tac.

Tom Kubiak
I didn’t realize that it was as popular, you know, currently as popular a thing as it was.

Ian Robertson
So I’ll end this podcast on just one or my part of the podcast on just one more point. So it made a resurgence in the 70s, in the early 2000s, and again, now. The resurgence in the 70s, it actually became a an important psychological treatment. So they actually call it Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy, they would actually treat people with mental disorders, using stoicism. There was a book written in 1971. And we won’t get into all of that. But they’re some of the tenets of it are so good, the psychologists still use it today. Interesting, hmm. Very interesting. Good discussion. Yeah. Great, great discussion. I’m almost out of my Black Dirt bourbon, which I enjoyed. Tom, thank you for being on your own show.

Tom Kubiak
Oh, thank you for having me. I got a good ancient Greek joke for you if you want.

Ian Robertson
Yeah, tell us.

Tom Kubiak
Okay. How did Poseidon greet the sea monster?

Ian Robertson
I don’t know. How?

Tom Kubiak
Hey, buddy. What’s Kraken?

Ian Robertson
That’s terrible. I actually kinda like that one. I gotta admit, that was a good one. All right, Tom. Thanks a lot.

Tom Kubiak
I’m the only one laughing at my jokes.

Ian Robertson
You’re entertaining yourself.

Tom Kubiak
Hey, Ian, thanks for spending the time with me.

Ian Robertson
Later, bye.

Tom Kubiak
Bye.

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